First Strike vs. Strike: Combat Ends

So just to be clear what's being discussed here is S:CE resolving at the same time as strikes with first strike? So, the only real change is that a strike with fs would effect a miniom using S:CE. Combat still ends before environmental damage etc.

I like this. S:CE is still plenty effective but not really the absolute trump it is today. Combat defense modules will benefit from being a bit varied.

Animalism combat doesn't benefit too much. Yeah you can horde away that equipment in the face of majesty, but bats and crows still goes away. Too many bowls and hearts and bows anyway.

Lambach wrote: So just to be clear what's being discussed here is S:CE resolving at the same time as strikes with first strike?

We're talking about First Strike coming before S:CE, not at the same time. That would mean, for instance, that your vampire who struck with superior Majesty would not get to untap if he got hit with unprevented First Strike aggravated damage, since the S:CE strike would not get to resolve.

Robert's point is that Animalism gets a bit better just because the most effective defense against Bats and Crows would get a bit worse. People might replace some S:CE in their deck with dodges or prevention out of fear of First Strike agg damage or Muddles. Neither dodges nor prevention is nearly as effective as S:CE against bats and crows combat.

Ah thanks for the explanation that makes a lot of sense. OK I change my mind. Animalism combat doesn't need any kind of boost.

AaronC wrote: Robert's point is that Animalism gets a bit better just because the most effective defense against Bats and Crows would get a bit worse. People might replace some S:CE in their deck with dodges or prevention out of fear of First Strike agg damage or Muddles. Neither dodges nor prevention is nearly as effective as S:CE against bats and crows combat.

Which is only half of what will happen : any deck with access to first strike will suddenly be a lot stronger against animalism combat. The edge of animalism combat is that it still do a lot of damage ; with first strike you have a significant chance to ignore their Carrion.

Also, there is excellent prevention available against environmental damage ; it's just not the same one as against potence for 10 damage.1111

Which leads us to another problem with vtes combat - no proper support of multiple minions/retainers versus multiple minions/retainers (carrion crows should be retainer in "perfect world". You should be able to choose which attack you want to dodge.

And yeah, there is good -non-s:ce - counter to crows and bats. It's called hidden strength.

Ohlmann wrote: Which is only half of what will happen : any deck with access to first strike will suddenly be a lot stronger against animalism combat. The edge of animalism combat is that it still do a lot of damage ; with first strike you have a significant chance to ignore their Carrion.

I'm not sure what your debate is. If something were to impede animalism, even a bit, would most likely not be a bad thing. However, you seem to be stating that animalism will SUFFER more. I don't believe that First Strike trumping S:CE will effect animalism enough to make them change anything in their deck design except, maybe, to throw in an additional Canine Hordes or two. One can always "ignore their Carrion" with S:CE in the first place so who really is troubled by someone having to play additional cards to gain the same effect?