I really don't like ashur tablets

Poci wrote: It's not about the speed, but the effect. "13 random cards"-effect is still OP.

You forget that 13 random card mean you don't adapt your draws to the situation, which is the whole point of Ashur tablet. I often see Ashur deck putting back only anti-combat card because the table was very combat-y, or mainly banishment and Voter cap because their predator is a raving bleed machine.

You may believe the statistic effect of thoses choices are weak, but it can be extremely important, since by the time you finish your set you often already have played 20-40 cards. In this condition, reshuffling 13 useful card in the mix can significantly improve the chance of drawing something useful.

The bloat effect, while nice, is 1 pool per MPA. If that's overpowered, why people don't play Ascendance ?

3 MPA to get a card from ashheap to hand isn't strong either.
3 MPA to get 13 cards from ashheap to library isn't strong either.

Ashur is imba because you get the combined effect of three mediocre effects. Removing say, poolgain, do have a noticable impact.

I like Ashur Tablets. They open up strategies that would be otherwise impossible, like quickly collecting permanents, exhausting the deck, and then picking transient cards back up for the end game. In the decks where I use them, I don't bother with MMPAs. I've still found them very effective.

DeathInABottle wrote: They open up strategies that would be otherwise impossible, like quickly collecting permanents, exhausting the deck, and then picking transient cards back up for the end game.

That's exactly why I believe they should be banned, by the way. It remove the fundamental friction in VtES deck building, namely the deck composition that allow you to have enough of what you need without choking on it.

Ohlmann wrote:

DeathInABottle wrote: They open up strategies that would be otherwise impossible, like quickly collecting permanents, exhausting the deck, and then picking transient cards back up for the end game.

That's exactly why I believe they should be banned, by the way. It remove the fundamental friction in VtES deck building, namely the deck composition that allow you to have enough of what you need without choking on it.

Yes, I am with you on this. Imho vtes is a game about the transient effects. That's part of what makes building a good deck so hard (at least for me ). I do agree to 100% that tablets enable strategies that would otherwise be impossible - but the important follow-up question here is "Are these strategies actually something that belongs in the game?"

And herein lies part of why I started this thread in the first place. I really want to say "no, my highly personal opinion is that these kind of strategies do not belong in this game" - but I know that plenty of people will say the exact opposite (and to be honest, I'm not certain who is right here).

What I do believe however is that the strategy of "wait until PoD so everyone will play them and then everything will sort itself out" will not work. I think that what will happen is that everyone will start playing them more for a while - then the "ashur peak" will be reached and people will stop playing them until we are back at the same level as today. Which means that we will most likely still converge on the level of tablet play that we have today - which I (as I've said before) don't really like. I don't really see this as a solution, just as a portent that it will probably get worse (for a short while).

I like the effect but maybe as a once off. I.e when they activate, remove all copies from your library, ash heap and hand from the game. That'll stop decks being based solely on them.

Totally agree that the current situation is dire