What makes a clan strong?

KevinM wrote: STRONG: as an in-clan discipline
WEAK: as an in-clan discipline

KILL THE TROLL!

The most significant factor in clan strength is the disciplines that they have in-clan. Discipline cards have widely varying effects and therefore cause the most differentiation between clans. Sect cards have the next greatest impact (because the largest number of vampires can play them), followed by Clan cards and then trait cards.

Most clans have three primary disciplines and the synergy between those disciplines is paramount. There are two primary methods of interaction between minions and methuselahs: bleeding and politics. Combat is an indirect method of interaction though it occasionally has pool-related consequences. Additionally, there are two fundamental concepts with respect to minion interaction: stealth and intercept. Lastly, there are cards which provide opportunities to act multiple times or react multiple times in a turn.

Each discipline is good at one or more of these 6 fundamental aspects of VTES. Disciplines which excel in the first two are the most important since they directly impact whether a methuselah is ousted. Disciplines which provide stealth or intercept are next most important because they impact the success rate of bleeding and politics. Multi-acting/reacting cards are next most important since they provide additional opportunities to oust or thwart ousting. Combat is least important because actual combats are never guaranteed in VTES, and when combat occurs, it is a very risky proposition.

Here's a rough categorization which disciplines are IMO unambiguously "good" at each aspect of the game:

BLEED (Tier #1):
Daimonion
Dementation
Dominate
Presence

POLITICS (Tier #2):
Melpominee
Presence

STEALTH (Tier #3):
Chimerstry
Dementation
Mytherceria
Necromancy
Obfuscate
Obtenebration
Protean

INTERCEPT (Tier #4):
Animalism
Auspex
Spiritus

MULTI-ACT/REACT (Tier #5):
Animalism
Auspex
Celerity
Fortitude
Temporis

COMBAT (Tier #6):
Abombwe
Aniamalism
Celerity
Daimonion
Fortitude
Necromancy
Obeah
Obtenebration
Potence
Presence
Protean
Quietus
Sanguinus
Thanatosis
Thaumaturgy
Valeren
Vicissitude
Visceratika

I am sure there can/will/should be haggling about which disciplines belong where. But the point is, if a clan is not strong with the highest priority aspects of the game, it can't be strong in the game. Synergy is important. If you have ways to oust (bleed and politics) and ways to deliver the package (stealth), you're much more likely to do well than if you just have a bunch of evasion and combat disciplines. Sect, clan and trait cards cannot be excluded from this discussion. Still, the essence of any single vampire's strength in the game is its disciplines, and by extension the strength of the vampires is can most often associate in a methuselah's crypt, usually its clanmates.

About discipline synergy:

Some clans are good because of a synergy among their in-clan disciplines that is greater than the sum of its parts. For example, Dominate is viable on its own but Necromancy is not very good without it. Is that a good example? Can you think of any more?

Minor nitpicking about a couple of classifications.

Jeff Kuta wrote: BLEED (Tier #1):
Daimonion
Dementation
Dominate
Presence

, , and makes sense (each has useful bleed actions and modifiers).

I don't know if I'd put Daimoinon as a "bleed" discipline. They do have Sense the Sin which is nice, but several other disciplines can bleed for 3+ as well (Quietus with Loss, Serpentis with Truth of a Thousand Lies or Revelation of Desire).

STEALTH (Tier #3):
Chimerstry
Dementation
Mytherceria
Necromancy
Obfuscate
Obtenebration
Protean

I'd barely count Necromancy as a stealth discipline. They have Spectral Divination and Call of the Hungry Dead which are both strong, but that's mainly it. Ex Nihilo is awkward to use, and they can get extra stealth when playing with wraiths. So I don't consider Necromancy (Divination + Call) significantly more stealthy than Quietus (Blood Awakening and Deed the Heart's Desire).

Also, I think it might be more appropriate to include pseudo-stealth and similar effects under "stealth" (pretty much effects that help you get your action through). Giving other vampires negative intercept, or preventing them from blocking (Seduction or Daring the Dawn effects) should probably qualify if they are significant enough.

Let me restate my original assertions from a slightly different perspective:

Some vampires are good because they have a good discipline (e.g. Dominate).

Some vampires are good because their clan-specific library cards are strong (e.g. Palla Grande).

Some vampires are good because they have particularly strong titles or other special abilities (e.g. Nosferatu Royalty).

All clans have vampires that fit the criteria. So why do we care if a clan is weak or strong? What are we really getting at here?

Dorrinal wrote: About discipline synergy:

Some clans are good because of a synergy among their in-clan disciplines that is greater than the sum of its parts. For example, Dominate is viable on its own but Necromancy is not very good without it. Is that a good example? Can you think of any more?

Dominate has a lot of offensive power, but it doesn't have much in the way of a delivery mechanism (Seduction, Bonding, maybe Dominate Kine and Sleeping Mind if you are desperate).

Necromancy has two really good cards with Spectral Divination and Call of the Hungry Dead. By itself, it really isn't that much "stealth." But when combined with Seduction and Bonding, then it's starting to get strong because together they cover what each cannot individually. Similarly, Spiritual Intervention provides valuable combat defense that Dominate lacks (other than Obedience).

I think Celerity might be another good example. It rocks with the Brujah/!Brujah since synergizes really well. But Celerity itself isn't so hot with the Toreador/!Toreador or the !Gangrel. It's a bit more useful to the Assamites when combined with their combat.

Edward Vignes wrote: doesn't need a delivery mechanism.