On Villein. 1. "problematic card"

CONTRA
While I feel its trifle effect is needed, becouse thx to it we can see much more big caps on tournaments, it combos too well with Giant's Blood, Lilith's blessing and Golconda. If those cards are going to stay legal (especially Giant's Blood and lilith's blessing) villein should be altered in some way. I propose give it 1 pool cost (like it was done in case of vessel) and limit minion tap penalty only to the methuselah that has played villein.
Or it's effect could be changed to something like "maximum x blood can be moved" as some people prosed (and limited minion tap penalty).

Jussi wrote: PRO

So, if you Villein a vampire all his blood, you'll be making yourself target and effectively making yourself more vulnerable position: Think of EC 2011 day 2 finals, where Izaak dealt 8 pool damage to Otso, who comboed Villein and Giant's blood.

Oh, yeah, i remember that... And because of that move, Izaak won the table and Otso, who pulled off the combo didn't... Oh, wait...

PRO

But I also like Vincent's suggestion to limit the effect of Villein.

It might be worth considering not to allow to draw off ALL blood on a vampire (maybe up to 2 blood must remain): this would solve the "problematic" interaction of Villein with Lilith's Blessing.

Jussi wrote: If you bleed hard enough, even a deck with 8-10 villeins is unable to get out enough minions before you oust them.

So you have to play decks which can bleed hard enough on tournaments, because many players pack Villeins, right? That leads not to disversified decks like we all wish but to one road you have to take. I don't like that development of Metagame to be honest.

Joscha wrote:

Jussi wrote: If you bleed hard enough, even a deck with 8-10 villeins is unable to get out enough minions before you oust them.

So you have to play decks which can bleed hard enough on tournaments, because many players pack Villeins, right? That leads not to disversified decks like we all wish but to one road you have to take. I don't like that development of Metagame to be honest.

That, or do combat.

Axe them before they benefit from villein.

Edit: And, yeah, there haven't been much powerbleeds in tournaments already?

Jussi wrote:

Joscha wrote:

Jussi wrote: If you bleed hard enough, even a deck with 8-10 villeins is unable to get out enough minions before you oust them.

So you have to play decks which can bleed hard enough on tournaments, because many players pack Villeins, right? That leads not to disversified decks like we all wish but to one road you have to take. I don't like that development of Metagame to be honest.

That, or do combat.

Axe them before they benefit from villein.

Edit: And, yeah, there haven't been much powerbleeds in tournaments already?

And this in turn requires you to pack a lot of Psyche, Telepathic Tracking or Immortal Grapple... Fair enough, there are plenty of options, but still some combat types can't really counter a Majesty - after which the Villein is just as annoying.

Anyways, this discussion has way too many variables to be solved on any forums in any given time. At least that's what I think. That's why I won't really take further part in discussion 'how to counter Villein'. That's an endless pit of arguments. We all know there are plenty, and we all must agree not all clans have proper answers to the threat.

Anyways, I'm for the Villein update: Up to 5 blood. Then rises the question if errata on cards is just too cumbersome, and all that, and how other players not in VEKN are going to react, etc. But then again, that's something we have to find out.

No, really, I just think it would be good to make Villein 'up to 5 blood'. It's a trifle for F's sake. Minion Tap was supposed to be too powerful (the original intent of Villein was to make Minion Tap worse after all?), but now Villein is just a 2.3 version of it.

And makes too nasty bloat combos with certain cards, like Giant's Blood and especially Lilith's. Just my 20c. Or let's make it 50c...