power level debate on cam and sabbat

@khormag

Is twisting the knife good? How do you determine this?

@proxy

Yes, the point is why should I play titles sabbat vampires in general when better things are available. Ideally the game would be populated with a lot of things that seemed distinct but about equally viable.

Obviously:
- 2nd trad should give +2 intercept only against actions
- first tradition should be completely different (action mod which gives -1 intercept for all minions or something).
- fourth tradition should move 4 counters
- fifth tradition should give 5 blood
- six tradition should be something else more playable

Then camarilla will be fine

Mewcat wrote: @khormag

Is twisting the knife good? How do you determine this?

@proxy

Yes, the point is why should I play titles sabbat vampires in general when better things are available. Ideally the game would be populated with a lot of things that seemed distinct but about equally viable.

I have no idea what you are trying to get to here, but I think it is pretty obvious that Twisting the Knife is not the best card out there...

If you want to know how I determine this. There are some important factors when evaluating cards. You have to take into account atleast the following:

1. Use of the card
- Any other cards with similar effect, that is maybe better or more flexible?
- How relevant is the effect of the card
- What kind of deck would want this card
2. Type
3. Cost (Effectiveness of the card compared to the cost of it)
4. Requirements and limitations
5. Synergy with other cards

LivesByProxy wrote:

Lönkka wrote: Mewcat seems to be under the strange idea that all Sects (of Clans. Or Disciplines) need to be equal.

They do not.
Variance is a great flavor!

I don't think you would deliberately misrepresent what Mewcat is saying, so what you said here is very strange.

The deliberate misrepresention is all in your head.

Also,to me Mew seems to advocate that all animals should be equal. Which never won't be the case.

There is a lot going on here. Orwell references? Clever wordplay or just bad grammar? So confuse.

Khormag wrote:

Mewcat wrote: @khormag

Is twisting the knife good? How do you determine this?

@proxy

Yes, the point is why should I play titles sabbat vampires in general when better things are available. Ideally the game would be populated with a lot of things that seemed distinct but about equally viable.

I have no idea what you are trying to get to here, but I think it is pretty obvious that Twisting the Knife is not the best card out there...

If you want to know how I determine this. There are some important factors when evaluating cards. You have to take into account atleast the following:

1. Use of the card
- Any other cards with similar effect, that is maybe better or more flexible?
- How relevant is the effect of the card
- What kind of deck would want this card
2. Type
3. Cost (Effectiveness of the card compared to the cost of it)
4. Requirements and limitations
5. Synergy with other cards

Ok lets look at TTK (twisitng the knife) in a manner that is familiar to you.

1. Use of the card
- Any other cards with similar effect, that is maybe better or more flexible?
Occupies a very unique niche that is only populated by it and pulled fangs. pulled fangs offers no press however and a press can be the difference between success and failure. having the press and damage with 1 card is a lot more efficient in many ways
- How relevant is the effect of the card
Torping out a minion is very relevant or even denying them the ability to play some of their
powerful cards without hunting for several turns
- What kind of deck would want this card
wall type or aggressive combat

2. Type
is a combat card

3. Cost (Effectiveness of the card compared to the cost of it)
cost in not desirable but we have no direct competition to compare it to. pulled fangs could
easily lose you a game when a cross table spends time taking dentistry actions and should be avoided in a game as nuanced and complex as vtes

4. Requirements and limitations
requires potence, requires i do 3 damage. Potence excels at doing 3 damage and this even
stacks with strikes for extra big hits!

5. Synergy with other cards
works well with grapple, torn signpost. hit for 3 and get 2 presses.

It is kind of swallow to say that TTK isnt good. I think you are missing the press.
It is also really stupid to compare cards in a vacuum in a game with so many layers as VTES has. You need to take into account that potence has access to grapple and torn signpost, just to name a few cards.

How much play testing have you done on TTK? We need to gather sufficient data to come to
conclusions. After all it took 10+ years for people to put 3 pentex in all decks. Vtes is just
so complex that it takes that long to figure out.