"Sufficiently Mixed"

Boris The Blade wrote: Or we could just stop micromanaging this particular point.

That's pretty much my position. Either we should tell people that opaque sleeves are mandatory, or we should tell people that it's up to judges' discretion as to what "sufficiently mixed" means and so they should be completely prepared to sleeve anyway.

What's really bad is telling people: here are a bunch of highly specific 'guidelines' you have to follow but you may still have to sleeve anyway. What's the point of the highly specific guidelines if they don't actually achieve any clarity? We wouldn't tell people that they should bring about 12 vampires in their crypt, but some judges might let them use the deck with 10, or a library with 93 cards or 58, and then have to manically sort things out in the few minutes before round one.

jamesatzephyr wrote: That's pretty much my position. Either we should tell people that opaque sleeves are mandatory, or we should tell people that it's up to judges' discretion as to what "sufficiently mixed" means and so they should be completely prepared to sleeve anyway.

I'm fine with the tournament rules saying "judge's discretion", but, if the VEKN is not going to mandate opaque sleeves, then the judge's guide should actually provide guidance here. The various ways people can gain advantage from mixing backs aren't immediately obvious, even to experienced players (see this thread), so examples of how this can be manipulated and ideas of things to check there are required. There's a bit buried in the discussion around marked cards, but that really needs to be elobrated on.

I'm surprised what kinds of hoops some are prepared to jump through just to avoid having to purchase 1-2 packs of sleeves costing all in all some $10 to 15 or so...

Sure it is an expense but come on now, think of all the amount of money you've already put to the game and compare this sum to it. Miniscule? Insignificant?

Lönkka wrote: I'm surprised what kinds of hoops some are prepared to jump through just to avoid having to purchase 1-2 packs of sleeves costing all in all some $10 to 15 or so...

Sure it is an expense but come on now, think of all the amount of money you've already put to the game and compare this sum to it. Miniscule? Insignificant?

Correct, so consider the possibility that the availability and/or cost of sleeves isn't the reason for not wanting to use sleeves.

drnlmza wrote: I'm fine with the tournament rules saying "judge's discretion", but, if the VEKN is not going to mandate opaque sleeves, then the judge's guide should actually provide guidance here. The various ways people can gain advantage from mixing backs aren't immediately obvious, even to experienced players (see this thread),

Examples of bad things that can happen is sensible - like with have with various other areas of the judges' guide. Like, we give examples of bad sportsmanship, but it's still clear that adjudicating that is the judges' discretion - we don't have highly specific guidance that says that keeping your voice within 10 decibels of the ambient noise level (sampled over a 5 minute period, +/- 5%) qualifies as not shouting, but that judges can override that anyway if they think it is shouting.

Kushiel wrote:

Lönkka wrote: I'm surprised what kinds of hoops some are prepared to jump through just to avoid having to purchase 1-2 packs of sleeves costing all in all some $10 to 15 or so...

Sure it is an expense but come on now, think of all the amount of money you've already put to the game and compare this sum to it. Miniscule? Insignificant?

Correct, so consider the possibility that the availability and/or cost of sleeves isn't the reason for not wanting to use sleeves.

Why should I be punished for the crappy print runs? Can't shuffle 90 cards with sleeves and I don't want to spend an hour sleeving cards.