Prejudice special ability

13 May 2018 18:29 #86864 by Kushiel

Replied by Kushiel on topic Prejudice special ability

Lönkka wrote: Ankha just gave the official ruling on this exact same question in the previous page...

The previous page of this thread? Ankha's only post on that page clarifies which minion gets the bleed bonus, but not the circumstances of when it can be activated.

Also, I'm curious about the rule regarding playing bleed modifier action modifier cards during non-bleed actions - I also couldn't find anything about this in the rulebook or via Google.

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13 May 2018 19:28 #86866 by drnlmza

Replied by drnlmza on topic Prejudice special ability

Kushiel wrote: Also, I'm curious about the rule regarding playing bleed modifier action modifier cards during non-bleed actions - I also couldn't find anything about this in the rulebook or via Google.

The places I know it's mentioned are in the Lasombra's VtES FAQ (which really should be revived and hosted somewhere offical)

VTES FAQ wrote: 3.6. Can Bonding be played on a non-bleed action?
No. You may not play superior Bonding on a non-bleed action just to get the stealth. In general, you may only play action modifiers which are appropriate to the action.

and in the general play summary

Play summary wrote: Only action modifiers appropriate to the action may be played. e.g., you may not use a +1 bleed effect on a non-bleed action. [RTR]

I haven't been able to find the original ruling - the oldest clear statement I've found is LSJ in this post from 1998, but that thread cites the ruling as already existing.

It's not mentioned in the rulebook (which it really should be), nor, as far as I can see, in any of the ruling lists.

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13 May 2018 21:02 #86867 by jamesatzephyr

Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic Prejudice special ability

drnlmza wrote: I haven't been able to find the original ruling - the oldest clear statement I've found is LSJ in this post from 1998, but that thread cites the ruling as already existing.

This appears to be the earliest source:

From: (Tom Wylie)
Newsgroups: rec.games.deckmaster
Subject: NEW: Rulings summary for Jyhad
Date: 9 Nov 1994 13:11:24 -0800

Bonding:
The superior version cannot be used to increase the stealth of a
non-bleed action; action modifiers which modify/replace bleed may
only be used on bleed actions.

groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.deckmaster/_6CXoKTSLnw/FdG67-3HEAQJ

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jamesatzephyr
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14 May 2018 01:33 - 14 May 2018 01:33 #86871 by Kushiel

Replied by Kushiel on topic Prejudice special ability

Thanks for finding those, folks.

Since we're currently in the era in which it's relatively easy to errata cards, would it make sense to add some kind of text to bleed mods cards, since the rule isn't in the rulebook? Or add something concrete to the rulebook? I mentioned this on Facebook, but "appropriate to the action" is awfully loose for a rule.

Last edit: 14 May 2018 01:33 by Kushiel.

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14 May 2018 08:15 #86873 by jamesatzephyr

Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic Prejudice special ability

Kushiel wrote: Since we're currently in the era in which it's relatively easy to errata cards, would it make sense to add some kind of text to bleed mods cards, since the rule isn't in the rulebook? Or add something concrete to the rulebook? I mentioned this on Facebook, but "appropriate to the action" is awfully loose for a rule.

There aren't really that many situations where it can happen, and the general principle of not being able to modify something that isn't there has been applied in a variety of rulings over time. The main situations historically are:

- bleed on a non-bleed action (doesn't work, and can't be voluntarily applied)
- damage on a non-damaging strike (doesn't work, and can't be voluntarily applied)

I guess in theory now we have "+X hunt" as a keyword, a very brief card text might allow for "+1 hunt" but for card space reasons might not allow for lots of card text explaining exactly when it's playable (e.g. if it was a level on a crowded Anarch three-way), which would implicitly work much the same way.

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jamesatzephyr
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14 May 2018 08:55 - 14 May 2018 08:59 #86875 by Ankha

Replied by Ankha on topic Prejudice special ability

Action modifiers cards that increase the bleed can't be played on non-bleed actions because their cardtexts forbid it.
Action modifiers cards that give votes can't be played on non-political actions because their cardtexts forbid it.

Action modifiers cards and other effects (e.g., Backways) that increase the stealth can't be played or used when not necessary because the rulebook forbids it.
Reaction cards that increase the intercept (e.g. KRCG News Radio) can't be played or used when not necessary because the rulebook forbids it.

There is probably a loophole here because increasing the bleed on a non-bleed action is not covered by the rules nor the cardtexts for other sources (e.g., Anu Diptinatpa, or Prejudice).

I believe it makes more sense to forbid it, rather than allowing it.

The only vampire for which it makes sense is Andre Leroux because his +2 bleed bonus lasts for the whole turn, and it is designed to work so.

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Last edit: 14 May 2018 08:59 by Ankha.

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Prejudice special ability