Time for negotiation after playing a card before terms are set

M.Schumacher wrote: The consequence of this in a tournament would be, that as soon as pentex gets played, all table talk should be prohibited until the effeects of the card are declared fully.
I have seen different many times ,though. A player will play pentex, then the whole thing about "if give u this or that if u dont pentex me" starts and then the target is declared. Acording to you that would be illegal.

Yes, it is illegal. You cannot show cards on your hand, and target should be named when you play the cards. No room for discussion.

BUT, as Johannes points out, playing like this slows the game down and is not fun.

But if a player should call on me as a judge and want to enforce the correct rule, I would judge in his favor.

Ankha wrote: Game-wise, no. It would be the same as revealing a card from your hand (which is illegal) and using this advantage ("I'm not bluffing, look") to make some deal.

johannes wrote: You are not revealing the card from your hand, you are actually playing it, so no way to take it back. Quite a difference.

Quite a huge difference indeed. The difference between a very illegal play and one which is fine by the rules.

johannes wrote: In my opinion forbidding talk/deals between putting the card down and announcing the target will simply slow down the game. In the current common practice where talk is usually done probably someone will offer a deal, but if no one wants to no time is wasted.

There is not really room for discussion here. It is illegal to play a Pentex Subversion and then allow a window for table talk about the target of the Pentex. Are you really advocating this be legitimized? Really?

Sure, players should be educated that taking the Parity Shift action and actually declaring the terms of the Parity Shift are different. But playing a card and not announcing its effects really is cheating.

Consider a change where all playing cards and announcing targets is atomic then people will gradually change to asking questions before they play anything...[nonsensical rationalization of poor behavior snipped]

It is atomic. That is the whole point. If someone plays a Pentex Subversion without declaring a target, and then pauses for some table discussion about which minion to target, they have gained a huge positional advantage in any (illegal) negotiations. The card is actually being played.

Contrast that with someone saying during their Master phase, hypothetically, "I'm considering playing Pentex Subversion on your vampire. What will you do so that I play it on someone else's vampire instead?" The person who initiates this discussion may be bluffing. This is acceptable because bluffing is part of any game with hidden information.

People need to learn to play the game right. They don't need to have loopholes added where they aren't necessary in the name of expediency.

Opening your master phase asking what people will do to not be pentexed is better, imo, since its not illegal.

Negotiating shouldnt take forever, you got a pentex, grow a pair and make a decision. No pentex, act really torn before playing a blood doll and moving on. Talking shouldnt be stalling, same applies to taking six uears fishing for cards to ashur tablets or conviction at untap. Play better, think farther, and its all fine.

The way I see it, it's simply cheating.

here's how you play a card, in 3 easy steps.
1) show the card face up
2) declare all effects
3) immediately replace (unless a card says otherwise)

if you haven't completed steps 2 and 3, you haven't played the card yet! you're just showing off a card in your hand, which is illegal.

none of this "I was eventually going to play it" lawyering. oh, I was eventually going to move those counters out of my pool. I was eventually going to shuffle my library. I whispered a deal to another player but it's ok because I was eventually going to tell the whole table about it.

Haze wrote: here's how you play a card, in 3 easy steps.
1) show the card face up
2) declare all effects
3) immediately replace (unless a card says otherwise)

Be careful about "immediately replace", because cancelling the card goes before that, at 2.5 in your list.

And yes, lots of us will have replaced the card before our prey says "No, dammit, you can't have that Giant's Blood" and we handle that, but...