Archeology: Jyhad combat as it can be reconstructed from present time

Bloodartist wrote: When a card game is young, its designers rarely have a grasp on the game's overall balance...

The whole story is that they've got fine balance and then destroyed it for the sake of couple idiots, and then for 4 years, having "playtesters" all around the world and all problems completely clear at the table (see req.games.jyhad), was pretending that everything is fine.

Bloodartist wrote: However, its the mentality against change that I see as a problem, particularly on these forums. Players have become too stuck with the past. If there are problems with cards, lets fix them/introduce counters/errata problematic cards etc.

It's quite logical, actually - all who was "pro change" already left, we have only crazy fanboys (in their mid 40-s ) left, who will not only argue with any change, they, as you can see, are continuing to defend clearly stupid decisions, which are already fixed!

Some idea, how "combat minigame" broke whole game.

As you know was quite cool at Jyhad - you was able to play conditioning, threats and bonding in one action. It's a little broken, obviously, but was not so bad when it was first introduced. Because to play them all you should have them all in your hand, an you also need a couple stealth cards, and a bounce and a master and couple combat cards.

Combat cards?

For M94 all there was is dodge, press, maneuver and disguised weapon.

Not so cool, but if we know, that combat is quite widespread as well as except couple retainers all damage are dealt with regular strikes, than we know that dodge will save at least 2 blood for us, which is quite fine. If we will dodge, than it's practically impossible to kill us in the first round, so opponent will press and our press to end will be helpful too. Maneuvers will not be needed, but there is one pared with dodge, so we some time can surprise.

Or we can go with some disguised cool weapon - we know it can be used.

So then we got like 16+ combat cards in a deck, which makes our deck slower, but much more survivable as well as much more pleasant to play against.

Obviously, if you got IG in the world, than having anything is dumb - combat is rare, so most of the time it will be just dead cards, when you'll meet combat, then it will be complete crush with IG - you will have to ability to dodge or attack with weapon and you will not survive till a press time.

So you drop all of this and put more stealth and bleed, and then your prey will have no other option then to destroy you or be destroyed by you.

Bloodartist wrote:

LivesByProxy wrote: I personally think it would be really neat if most / all cards required disciplines and then gave Clan / Sect bonuses like Aire of Elation and Fiendish Tongue.

But then we would have to give the same basic functions to nearly every discipline, which would create a lot of overlap and boring copypaste. I don't see how that would make things better.

I should clarify: I think most / all cards should require disciplines. And it would be cool if there were more cards like Aire of Elation that gave Clan / Sect specific bonuses, i.e. Vermin Channel requires Animalism but gives an additional small bonus if the vampire is Nosferatu.

How do you reach your conclusion about giving same basic functions to every discipline?There is already overlap between the disciplines, but as long as each does it in the discipline's own unique way, and has its own flavour, then that is fine.

Let me give an example:

Disguised Weapon vs (NEW!) Quick Draw

Quick Draw
Combat
Only usable before strikes are chosen if you have a gun weapon card in your hand. The gun cannot cost 3 or more pool or inflict (with a regular strike) aggravated damage or 3 or more damage.
Equip this vampire with that gun (and pay cost to equip as normal).
As above, and this round the gun strikes with first strike.

Does it overlap with Disguised Weapon? Yes, but it does it in a distinctly Celerity style. Does Celerity Guns need it? They have Concealed Weapon, but this is just an example to show how Disciplines could be given to all sorts of cards that are currently Discipline-less.

I'd be interested in seeing how Forced Awakening, WWEF, and On The Qui Vive would be done, what Disciplines they would theoretically get.

elotar wrote: Some idea, how "combat minigame" broke whole game.

As you know was quite cool at Jyhad - you was able to play conditioning, threats and bonding in one action. It's a little broken, obviously, but was not so bad when it was first introduced.

Richard G. has been quoted as saying that he knew there were broken and OP Magic cards released with Alpha (the cards that came to be called 'The Power Nine' among others...) and his response was something like, "Well if it's a niche game, no big deal because everyone will have those cards. If the game is a run-away hit, well... is that really a problem?" (I'm paraphrasing.)

Had VTES taken off like MTG did, and WotC kept it, Govern and Conditioning would probably be 100$+ cards right now.

Of course, this is just pointless speculation.

elotar wrote: O, actually! As an example of stupid crap, happening during jyhad playtest, Garfield in an interview mentioned some dorks, who tried at 2:00 at night to try to add together two "2 hand damage" cards, so they can gave "4 hand damage". He, as I understand, for one hundredth time told them, that such thing do not stack.

I read this passage too but had a much different takeaway than you did. Garfield basically locked himself in a room as a deadline for VTES approached so people would leave him alone, yet he apparently was the final decision maker. That's pretty dysfunctional behavior, and this was coming from the lead creator/designer of the game. Not sure why you are quick to call everyone else "dorks," but then defend someone who was likely instigating the "stupid crap." Is it not possible that the "stupid crap" was trickling down from the top?

If there were any issues with VTES that were introduced at that time, I think it's safe to say all parties involved were responsible.

elotar wrote: some dorks, who tried at 2:00 at night to try to add together two "2 hand damage" cards, so they can gave "4 hand damage". He, as I understand, for one hundredth time told them, that such thing do not stack.

And what do they do at the move to VtES, when Garfield was not in control? They made this crap stack!

And yet, combat still does not win.