The future of V:TES

Boris The Blade wrote: Precon have the advantage of being directly playable for total newbies. If you remove the retailer constraint (they don't want to shelf 40 or so different starters), is it possible to have one starter per clan available?

Also, if the precons were reworked to the save level of quality as the HTTB starters, ie. competitive. Then that would greatly diversify the number of clans played (if only by new players). Precon design could also be used for side marketing, ie. A large scale design competition or similar — I'm sure a lot of players would be interested in that (esp for the more challenging clans).

Being able to start with (almost) any clan would highlight the richness and diversity of V:TES and if all the decks were reasonably competitive then new players wouldn't feel like they needed to invest heavily to stand a chance (skill aside).

I would not do preconstructed deck for bloodline for two reason :
* they are supposed to be rare. It would feel strange me to see as much Kyaside as !Brujah.
* a lot of bloodline are based on quirky, hard to get card. So they would impact more card collection value than other preconstructed
* some bloodline can't or are not supposed to be played alone. Nagaraja and Abomination are the chief one, but even True Brujah or Salubri are not supposed to be played alone anyhow.

Agreed — that was the (almost) part.

That said, if a Nagaraja or Abomination vampire worked really well with a specific clan then it would make sense if they were at least considered for that precon.

Ohlmann wrote: I would not do preconstructed deck for bloodline for two reason :
* they are supposed to be rare. It would feel strange me to see as much Kyaside as !Brujah.
* a lot of bloodline are based on quirky, hard to get card. So they would impact more card collection value than other preconstructed
* some bloodline can't or are not supposed to be played alone. Nagaraja and Abomination are the chief one, but even True Brujah or Salubri are not supposed to be played alone anyhow.

Boris The Blade wrote:

Poci wrote: Maybe, you could go back to the Jyhad type decks, no fix cards just randomly X cards.

Precon have the advantage of being directly playable for total newbies. If you remove the retailer constraint (they don't want to shelf 40 or so different starters), is it possible to have one starter per clan available? Lasombra and Gangrel in particular badly need a reprint of their core discipline.

Great idea. Starters for all (or almost all) clans would be a great way to open up the game for potential new players while providing a vessel for highly demanded, useful reprints and/or new cards.

Ohlmann wrote: * they are supposed to be rare. It would feel strange me to see as much Kyaside as !Brujah.

Lore rarity != card rarity. The rarity of bloodlines is already represented in game by fewer vampires.

* a lot of bloodline are based on quirky, hard to get card. So they would impact more card collection value than other preconstructed

There is no such universal thing as "card collection value". It evolves through time, and almost always goes down. Reprinting high value cards has been the policy ever since White Wolf took over. Did you complain when a War Ghoul got fixed in 3rd? A Disarm in Black Hand? A DI in Sabbat War? When Immortal grapple and Freak Drive were downgraded from R to U?

* some bloodline can't or are not supposed to be played alone. Nagaraja and Abomination are the chief one, but even True Brujah or Salubri are not supposed to be played alone anyhow.

Yes, Nagarajah and Abomination do not need a starter (although if the plan is to reprint everything, the vampires should still be available somehow), but there is no reason to exclude and from a reprint. Those clans force you to play a superstar deck and have a built-in extra "contest" rule to penalize them if they become too frequent. Once again, card availability is not and should not be the limiting factor that keeps them rare on the table.

Boris The Blade wrote: Lore rarity != card rarity. The rarity of bloodlines is already represented in game by fewer vampires.

It's still don't respond to the fact that I don't like seeing a tournament with mutliple True Brujah or Kyaside deck. Having to work harder to get thoses bloodline is not something all that infuriating in my opinion and will channel people to regular clan. There is already 20 non-bloodline clan !

Bloodline are ultimately not the focus of this game. The focus is, in this order, Camarilla, Sabbat, then independant vying for influence in the djihad, not the loser on the wayside or the one-shot experimentation. And almost all bloodline are either failed experiment or remnant of destroyed groups.

Boris The Blade wrote: There is no such universal thing as "card collection value". It evolves through time, and almost always goes down. Reprinting high value cards has been the policy ever since White Wolf took over. Did you complain when a War Ghoul got fixed in 3rd? A Disarm in Black Hand? A DI in Sabbat War? When Immortal grapple and Freak Drive were downgraded from R to U?

It's a strict question of opinion. As of I, I strongly think that the reedition of Call the great Beast and War ghoul was an error. (even if my 9 war ghoul are all 3rd edition )

I have already said that difficult to replace card should be reprinted, but not the other. Bloodline are optional stuff in their very essence in my opinion. Everybody should be able to do a ventrue lawfirm or a tremere wall ; but if most people find impossible to create a good kyaside or True Brujah deck, then they already have a lot of option for them.

Boris The Blade wrote: Yes, Nagarajah and Abomination do not need a starter, but there is no reason to exclude and from a reprint. Those clans force you to play a superstar deck and have a built-in extra "contest" rule to penalize them if they become too frequent. Once again, card availability is not and should not be the limiting factor that keeps them rare on the table.

Once again, it should be one of thoses factor. Making them weaker feel crappy ; making them hard to do feel rewarding. And having, say for example, True brujah be the most played clan because it's the stronger at the time and card rarity is not a factor is stupid and should be prevented at all price.