Slaves

There would be no crypt problems for a pure gargoyle deck when you remove the stupid restrictive and ridiculously expensive slave rule. Gargoyles would be fixed right away.

GreyB wrote: There would be no crypt problems for a pure gargoyle deck when you remove the stupid restrictive and ridiculously expensive slave rule. Gargoyles would be fixed right away.

The problem with Gargoyles is not the slave rule, its that their discplines don't really lend to much other than combat. Which is why the slave rule actually makes them better, since you can then have Tremere with Dominate to give you the ousting power you need, with the gargoyles protecting them.

Klaital wrote:

GreyB wrote: There would be no crypt problems for a pure gargoyle deck when you remove the stupid restrictive and ridiculously expensive slave rule. Gargoyles would be fixed right away.

The problem with Gargoyles is not the slave rule, its that their discplines don't really lend to much other than combat. Which is why the slave rule actually makes them better, since you can then have Tremere with Dominate to give you the ousting power you need, with the gargoyles protecting them.

To elaborate, having to play a incompatible clan alongside your gargoyles is a huge cost in pool and time, basically your behind 2 rounds before the game even starts when you choose to play slave gargoyles. Then you have the problem that when anyone succeeds in eradicating your slave masters, you will be dead in the water, you lost all ousting capabilities, this is a huge weakness.

This cost would be justified if there was a fantastic benefit, but there isn't, even being able to play deflect isn't beneficial enough to justify the costs. And if you rely on tremeres to bleed and gargoyles to combat, it's simply MUCH better to play gangrel or brujah or any other clan that can combat really...

LK made a great attempt to add value to slave gargoyles, but you'd still be behind 2 rounds. What Gargoyles needed most was crypt acceleration and cards that would still be useful with and without slave masters (the majority of cards require slave masters or are wallpaper until you have a slave master on the table).

Now in the future we can keep designing cards to avoid the D action slave rule like converts or slave masters in master form, or we can simply change the D action rule, which would be the easiest option and beats adding trash to your deck to be able to play competitively.

Options thusfar.
1.) Remove the D action rule and fix tupogs.
2.) Replace the D action rule
-- 1.) Only affects slave 1 turn after entering play.
-- 2.) D actions cost 1 extra blood unless you have a slave master
3.) Add exceptionally powerful cards that justify the slave/master cost
4.) Avoid the D action rule by adding convert mechanics.

Maybe you just haven't made the right kind of decks? Because I have seen plenty of success with a deck consisting of small dom tremere and few choice gargoyles (and create gargoyles) that will wreck anyone who blocks your dom tremere when they bleed. Create Gargoyles worked especially great since could give them dominate also.

Klaital wrote: Maybe you just haven't made the right kind of decks? Because I have seen plenty of success with a deck consisting of small dom tremere and few choice gargoyles (and create gargoyles) that will wreck anyone who blocks your dom tremere when they bleed. Create Gargoyles worked especially great since could give them dominate also.

Or tupdogs, or rockcats, or hatchlings... Why even bother with Gargoyles like Alabastrom, Chalcedony, Chaundice etc. my point exactly.

Just because 4 cards allow you to make a few good decks doesn't mean the gargoyles as a clan isn't broken. It's like saying; 'the only way to play with Gangrels is to use Renegade Garous or just Stanislava'.

ps. I've played all conceivable Gargoyle decks for the last 8 years, I have played the 'right' decks.

Thinking about it more, the main thing I would like Gargoyles to get is a master: dicpline card for Visceratika. its just way too annoying to teach superior to the smaller gargoyles as it is.

Also, Chaundice is actually pretty sweet, she is sabbat so you can just put regent and eternal vigilance on her with some of the permacept that gargoyles have abundance of to have really solid defense.