top ten worst....

Kraus wrote: On a different note, Regarhagan's Hold doesn't even seem too bad! You could use it with Narrow Minds to make 3 blood Deflections. Guardian Vigil is also played in insane numbers at times. But, then you see the 2 cost, and continue to wallpaper your room with them...

All Hold cards, they're reasonable cards with reasonable costs to get rid of, but it's absurd that they cost YOU blood or pool to play them as well.

I agree that some of the Hold cards are not terrible. The problem is they're not great, and they also have the added burden of including a novel of text to explain a not so great effect. That's kind of what makes Twisting the Knife the worst card ever: an objectively bad effect with the added burden of lots of card text to explain the effect.

I agree that some of the Hold cards are not terrible. The problem is they're not great, and they also have the added burden of including a novel of text to explain a not so great effect. That's kind of what makes Twisting the Knife the worst card ever: an objectively bad effect with the added burden of lots of card text to explain the effect.

The wall of text is a hindrance to players, that's for sure. The cumbersome wording doesn't make those cards marginal however.

The cards are actually terrible - not for their effect, but for their cost. Their use is already limited, and have a limited window where they can be played. Those things (and taking a card slot) in conjunction with an actual resource cost make them unbearably useless.

If their opportunity costs (make Regarhagan trifle for example) and and costs would be removed, one or two of them might possibly maybe dunno see some play in tandem with other hose cards. But it's unlikely even then.

But hey, at least I'll have plenty to read when I cover my walls with Holds! Always look on the bright side.

The hold cards reminded me of junk versions of cards like mind of a child, seeds of corruption, prison of the mind, condemnation cards, blood of sandman, etc. The primary drawback of the Dementation cards mentioned is huge cost for a discipline not really used for hampering one minion. Seeds was used, albeit with much debate over what it removed, and the condemnation cards aren't all on the same level, since if Baali are voting, Mute is enormous while if baali are fighting languid is barely noticeable. Blood of Sandman is of course 6 freaking stealth to nullify all wake effects on one vamp, so can be quite humorous (albeit not to the vampires owner) when someone taps their justicar so Saulot can't spirit marionette them, and then BoS on them.

Holds just aren't as good. What you have to put up to play them erodes utility.

Kraus wrote: If their opportunity costs (make Regarhagan trifle for example) and and costs would be removed, one or two of them might possibly maybe dunno see some play in tandem with other hose cards. But it's unlikely even then.

Regarhagan may not be terrible, especially in combination with Narrow Minds. 3 blood to play Deflection is steep...although it does cost a master phase action, master slot, and 2 pool, plus the discard phase action and delayed replacement from Narrow minds...

You know what? Nevermind. They all are unplayable.

mathusalem wrote: so sad Appolonius DID look cool.....

I agree, Appolonious looks amazing

I will still use him in my decks though

Never seen a single Hold being played...

Yup, Malkavian Dementia, especially with Derange had occasionally popped up. I remember the one Otso played at Ropecon some years ago.