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09 Nov 2015 16:26 #74162 by Henrique_Sorocaba
Replied by Henrique_Sorocaba on topic About Appolonius ADV.
OK, U R right... Not at the end of the action, but when he´s effectively bleeding... No more bounces and other modifier cards...

Then if he´s bleeding for more than 3...

But the methuselah that Appolonius is targeting is effectively changing while the bleed is been redirected, the action modifier is the Appolonius ADV card itself. So it´s been played even before the action....

Appolonius text is written "Appolonius gets +1 bleed for each title vampire controlled by the target of the bleed."

Appolonius ADV is bleeding Methuselah A that has 2 titled Vampires, the target is Methuselah A and he gets +2 bleed, if the bleed is redirected he already got +2 bleed, because during this action he already got +2 bleed, HE "Appolonius ADV" got +2 bleed during this action. You wrote that Appolonius ADV that is acting got +2 bleed, because the target has 2 titled vampires; the target changes and the next Methuselah B has no titled vampire... But what is written is that Apolonius gained +2 bleed in the beginning of the action.... He gets...

Another text suggestion "Appolonius gets +1 bleed for each title vampire controlled by the Methuselah he is bleeding." Remember the card is not released...

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09 Nov 2015 19:56 - 09 Nov 2015 20:11 #74171 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic About Appolonius ADV.
You look very confused, so let me explain.

Henrique_Sorocaba wrote: But the methuselah that Appolonius is targeting is effectively changing while the bleed is been redirected, the action modifier is the Appolonius ADV card itself. So it´s been played even before the action....

Appolonius isn't an action modifier, and his special is not an action modifier neither. He has a bonus bleed whose value depends on who is the target of the bleed.

Henrique_Sorocaba wrote: Appolonius text is written "Appolonius gets +1 bleed for each title vampire controlled by the target of the bleed."

Appolonius ADV is bleeding Methuselah A that has 2 titled Vampires, the target is Methuselah A and he gets +2 bleed, if the bleed is redirected he already got +2 bleed, because during this action he already got +2 bleed, HE "Appolonius ADV" got +2 bleed during this action.

The bonus bleed changes, it's not "applied" once. If it was, what would be the duration? The end of the action? The end of the turn? The end of the game?

Furthermore, say Appolonius (controlled by Methuselah A) is bleeding Methuselah B who controls a ready titled vampire with a Temptation his controller played on him. Methuselah A takes control of the titled vampire using the Temptation. Appolonius' bonus bleed falls down to 0 because the target of the bleed don't have any titled vampire.

Henrique_Sorocaba wrote: You wrote that Appolonius ADV that is acting got +2 bleed, because the target has 2 titled vampires; the target changes and the next Methuselah B has no titled vampire... But what is written is that Apolonius gained +2 bleed in the beginning of the action.... He gets...

You're mixing "gain +X bleed at the beginning of the action for the duration of the action" with a simple bonus he gets and whose value varies.

Henrique_Sorocaba wrote: Another text suggestion "Appolonius gets +1 bleed for each title vampire controlled by the Methuselah he is bleeding."

The target of the bleed is the Methuselah he is bleeding...
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Last edit: 09 Nov 2015 20:11 by Ankha.
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10 Nov 2015 10:45 - 10 Nov 2015 10:54 #74198 by TwoRazorReign
Replied by TwoRazorReign on topic About Appolonius ADV.
Ankha: "when" and "while" are both defined as "during the time that." If assigning two different meanings to these words in the context of how to handle effects in VTES, then making the distinction clear is extremely important. It is a bad idea to assume everybody understands this the way you do without explaining it somewhere in the rules.
Last edit: 10 Nov 2015 10:54 by TwoRazorReign.

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10 Nov 2015 11:57 #74201 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic About Appolonius ADV.

TwoRazorReign wrote: Ankha: "when" and "while" are both defined as "during the time that." If assigning two different meanings to these words in the context of how to handle effects in VTES, then making the distinction clear is extremely important. It is a bad idea to assume everybody understands this the way you do without explaining it somewhere in the rules.

You didn't read my answer, did you?

Ankha wrote: Anyway, the distinction it's not as important in V:TES as it is in Magic. Usage is made consistent to help players as I said, but whether "while" or "when" is used is not a key factor for the comprehension (you can do without).
"Triggered" effects simply have a trigger (however it is expressed). If they don't, then they aren't triggered effects.


Usage of "while" or "when" don't have any impact on how the game works.
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10 Nov 2015 16:57 #74212 by AaronC
Replied by AaronC on topic About Appolonius ADV.

TwoRazorReign wrote: Ankha: "when" and "while" are both defined as "during the time that."


"when" and "while" are not the same. A basic online dictionary search will reveal that. Your insistence that they are equivalent is getting old.

If you read card text, "when" is usually used in an "if X, then Y" statement. "when" X, Y happens. When (if) Doctor Streck bleeds, (then) the target discards a card.

"When" is also defined as "in the event that" or "just after the time that". That is probably the best way to use "when" in the game. "while" should probably be used whenever you talk about an event that occurs during an action or constant state but changeable state. "while bleeding"/"while you control a ready anarch"/etc.

However, even if the terms aren't used consistently, it's pretty obvious how they should be construed, even to non-native English speakers. "when" is a "trigger" unless it is followed by a present participle construction like "when bleeding". Then yes, you could also say "while bleeding".

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10 Nov 2015 23:01 - 10 Nov 2015 23:05 #74219 by TwoRazorReign
Replied by TwoRazorReign on topic About Appolonius ADV.
Ankha: I think we are talking past each other. I read your response. The bottom line is I dont agree with you, which is fine. I think making the distinction is more important than you think it is.

Aaronc: thank you for your thoughts on how the two words should be used in the context of vtes. My whole point is if these two similar words are going to be used for very different things in vtes, we need to define how they will be used. As you have done brilliantly.
Last edit: 10 Nov 2015 23:05 by TwoRazorReign.

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