On Villein. 1. "problematic card"

SOME DATA, NOT OPINION

To see just how widely used Villein is, I checked the Lasombra's TWD. My criteria: Tournament must have 20+ players, starting most recent report and going backward. I hit 20 reports near the end of July, 2011. I thought for sure there would be more decks with Villeins, but I was surprised by what I found.

Some facts and figures:

10 TWDs had Villeins
10 TWDs had no Villeins

Breakdown by type with Villeins:
1. Lutz vote (8x)
2. Ventrue G45 (6x)
3. Lutz vote (8x)
4. Armin Brenner vote (4x)
5. Dmitra vote (6x)
6. Saulot bloat/steal (6x)
7. Akunanse (6x)
8. Nana / ANI (7x)
9. Marconius / Faerie Wards (5x)
10.Saulot wall (7x)

Breakdown by type without Villeins:
1. Nana / ANI (144 players)
2. Imbued
3. Ahrimanes w Ashurs
4. Weenie AUS
5. Tupdog / Shamblers
6. Rock Cats
7. Setite Spell of Life
8. Tzimisce Rotschreck
9. Weenie AUS (90 players)
10.Ventrue G4/5

I see a lot of variety here. And look, NO GIRLS!

To me, this sort of data proves that Villein is NOT a huge problem. If anything, it has facilitated these sorts of decks. It is undoubtedly the strongest Trifle in the game, but does that mean it should be nerfed? I don't think Villein meets any objective criteria for change.

I actually find it odd to be in the position of defending a relatively strong card. I was very much on the ban Protect Thine Own bandwagon many years ago. I think that Pentex Subversion also ought to go the way of the dodo, possibly even Direct Intervention.

Villein is a good card. It has made it possible to play large cap superstar decks which were otherwise not feasible. It has helped the metagame shift away from weenies because the risk of playing large vampires has been significantly reduced. Based recent entries into the TWD, it appears that there is still a wealth of diversity out there in the VTES world. I would be more worried about the negative impact of such a change (undoing what the card was originally intended to do, keeping track of errata), then the positive impact of any change I have seen from any proposals would be not hosing Minion Tap.

For the record, I am PRO keeping Villein as is. It is not the problem. Nor are Giant's Blood and Lilith's Blessing.

The biggest problem in the game is Pentex Subversion. Not to threadjack, but that card has zero interaction between minions and is currently the ultimate "I WIN." card for merely 2 pool. Back to your regularly schedule Villein debate.

Jeff wrote: SOME DATA, NOT OPINION

10 TWDs had Villeins
10 TWDs had no Villeins

Breakdown by type with Villeins:
1. Lutz vote (8x)
2. Ventrue G45 (6x)
3. Lutz vote (8x)
4. Armin Brenner vote (4x)
5. Dmitra vote (6x)
6. Saulot bloat/steal (6x)
7. Akunanse (6x)
8. Nana / ANI (7x)
9. Marconius / Faerie Wards (5x)
10.Saulot wall (7x)

Breakdown by type without Villeins:
1. Nana / ANI (144 players)
2. Imbued
3. Ahrimanes w Ashurs
4. Weenie AUS
5. Tupdog / Shamblers
6. Rock Cats
7. Setite Spell of Life
8. Tzimisce Rotschreck
9. Weenie AUS (90 players)
10.Ventrue G4/5

What I see here is that to win you have to play villein or weenie. Exiting.

elotar wrote: What I see here is that to win you have to play villein or weenie. Exiting.

Your non-argument is invalid.

I suppose you'd prefer to go back to the pre-Villein metagame. Go ahead. I dare you to check the TWDA for decks up through December 31, 2008. I know you won't, so here's what you'd find:

Weenie AUS
Weenie PRE
Weenie DEM
Mid-cap Giovanni Powerbleed and Shamblers
Precious few large cap vote decks

Almost none of those had vampires of capacity 9+.

Villein has been a good thing and should stay as it is.

elotar wrote: What I see here is that to win you have to play villein or weenie. Exiting.

What? Did you even read the list Jeff provided?

Breakdown by type without Villeins:
2. Imbued
3. Ahrimanes w Ashurs
7. Setite Spell of Life
8. Tzimisce Rotschreck
10.Ventrue G4/5

Half of the non-Villein decks weren't weenie decks, assuming that #8 isn't a weenie deck (non-War Ghoul Tzimisce decks usually aren't). Even if that one is a weenie deck, 40% of those non-Villein decks weren't weenie decks. That'a a very substantial middle for you to willfully exclude there.

EDIT: I checked the Tzimisce deck, and its average crypt size was like 6.something. Not a weenie deck.

I guess it comes down to how you enjoy the game.

I enjoy making balanced decks with various options and themes.

Is it REALLY enjoyable to stack/spam a certain card to gain a specific benefit?

I like the limit on Villein. Cap it at 5. That would give minion tap a reason to exist.

Arthur Volts wrote: Is it REALLY enjoyable to stack/spam a certain card to gain a specific benefit?

You can be forced to be forced to stack villein for some decks.

You can also be forced not to play thoses decks because they are too weak, and that's arguably worse.

This is one of the possibles outcome if Villein is errated without a lot of playtesting.

But you're right on that they should be more card that act like villein, I.E. that allow you to greatly recoup the cost of a big caps. I hope to see something to that effect on the upcoming VEKN extension.