How can one churn excess or duplicate Master cards (beneficially)?

Boris The Blade wrote: I am not quite sure about the premise. People do not typically play Zillah's Valley in star decks with a single big cap, but in all big-cap decks that have robust pool gain to influence their minions, Those decks can use Zillah's Valley all game long.

The premise is not exclusive. It would apply to any excess masters.

For example, I used to run a a Follower of Set ally deck where half the crypt was Dedefra.
I'd burn my minions out with high cost cards (Shambling Hordes, Summon the Serpent) then send them to Khobar Towers, and repeat. In that deck, I really want to draw Heidelberg Castle and Khobar Towers early, so a lot of my discards in the mid and late game were excess copies of these cards.

I could, of course, add Dreams or whatever to help lube that deck - but that's NOT what I'm asking about.

I'm asking if there are other useful things to do with these excess master cards, similar to feeding them to Angelica the Canonicus.

Brothers Grimm, sorta kinda.

Bloodartist wrote: Same for procurer. I wonder who invented these cards.. I think we should look into introducing new, more efficient minion action card options for gaining blood, or gaining a hunting ground as a minion action. Currently its just too effective to use master cards for this.

I use Procurer fairly often, e.g:
-Get procurer with a chump 3-cap, to feed the star vampire(s).
-Get Procurer with someone else's vampire (when playing Temptation).
-Get Procurer, then explode the Procurer (when playing Khobar Towers).
-Get procurer with Danielle Diron to make her special kick in faster.
...and they also work fine as chump blockers.

Procurer is fine - he got other uses except giving blood, so you should pay for flexibility.
Palatial Estate, thou, should cost less or even just be free.
-1 pool to hunting grounds costs also will be fine.

hollowboy wrote:

Bloodartist wrote: Same for procurer. I wonder who invented these cards.. I think we should look into introducing new, more efficient minion action card options for gaining blood, or gaining a hunting ground as a minion action. Currently its just too effective to use master cards for this.

I use Procurer fairly often, e.g:
-Get procurer with a chump 3-cap, to feed the star vampire(s).
-Get Procurer with someone else's vampire (when playing Temptation).
-Get Procurer, then explode the Procurer (when playing Khobar Towers).
-Get procurer with Danielle Diron to make her special kick in faster.
...and they also work fine as chump blockers.

Not sure if you got my meaning. I'm not saying procurer and palatial estate are 'useless', I'm saying they are weaker and less efficient (since especially procurer already cost multiple actions) than master card options for blood economy, and thus, there is little space for them in my opinion.

Procurer as a chump blocker makes no sense. It costs 2 blood and has 1 life, no way to survive combat, no permanent intercept. You might as well block with the vampire who would recruit procurer in the first place, and take the default one damage. It would cost you less blood and less actions. Math is simply not on procurers side.

There may be place for procurer in an ally horde deck with a way to reduce recruiting costs and unmasking, but as a basic blood economy card it sucks. I'd rather play vessel.

The most efficient blood gain card is voter cap. Because of this, other cards that just gain blood as the action aren't as good. If you were already voting Instead of bleeding, you were already calling a vote, already needing to pass the vote, and probably had enough vote push to get it past another vote deck. So, you play Awe, Perfect Paragon, BO, etc anyway, what's one more action modifier in the mix. And it gains you 2 pool, and refills your vamp alot?
So, Abactor is the strongest action card that gains blood, but is only used if you can outvote blood hung ot ot can't be called anyway. Protean has cool blood gain.... if you're in torpor. Basically, voter cap is too good to recreate for other situations and give blood and pool. So, if the less than stellar blood gain cards were action modifiers, blood gain would work better:

Restoration

Only usable during the resolution of a successful action against a minion controlled by your predator or prey.
the acting vampire gains 2 blood
the acting vampire gains 3 blood.

So, this is the same text from the card but changed into a modifier and made quite limited. But, you can use it on any action. It's still not voter cap level good, but it's more useful. It makes your sense deps free, gives blood for rushing, makes tier of souls quite the fill up, etc. Because of this, its arguably too good. Even though voter cap also gets you blood for what you were already doing (and more of it) and let's you ignore cost of your modifiers (Awe and perfect paragon) and cost of the action (reckless agitation, lily prelude, etc). And it gains pool.

So, blood management in decks not voting with presence is by default not using the optimal tools. So, blood management is sticky, since helping fix the current state makes cards that clearly look too broken or unplayable.

I thought this thread was about masters?
Talbot let's you chuck those to rush. I was going to do Talbot and Aksynia after KoT came out, but then I didn't, and girls decks became a thing, and I would have quickly gotten tired of contesting half the combo...

Villein seems in my mind to be the biggest helper of big caps. I like the new LK harbinger that lets you put half his beads on uncontrolled harbingers, I feel the Grooming the protege style design space has options to explore. Even as a vanilla action or master OoT.

Plans for grandkids:
Master or +1 stealth action
Put this card into play.
When a vampire of capacity 9 or greater comes into play from your uncontrolled region, you may burn this card move 5 blood from that vampire to any uncontrolled vampire(s) of the same clan.

Mandating 5 blood and non unique seem balancing.
Also, it's super good if its master and action, but is more playable as a master. It would need to cost 1-2 pool to be trifled.